DRAFT (23 Nov 2011) Minutes for TICTOC meeting @ IETF-82 17 November 2011, 13:00 CST (05:00 UTC) 1. Administrivia and Agenda Bashing The meeting started at 13:00 CST. Karen O'Donoghue chaired the meeting with Yaakov Stein connected via webex. Dave Marlow took minutes. Tim Plunkett was the jabber scribe. Karen bashed the agenda and the blue sheets were distributed. Karen provided the status for the Working group since the last meeting: 3 working group drafts, 6 individual submissions, and one ad-hoc interim webex meeting. 2. ITU-T SG15/Q13 update Stefano Ruffino provided slides for an ITU-T SG15/Q13 update which Tim Frost presented. SG15/Q13 had an interim meeting in September 2011. There was progress in both the transport of frequency in packet networks (G.826x series) and the transport of time in packet networks (G.827x series). Synchronous Ethernet and SDH deliver frequency while PTP delivers time. In answering a question from Yaakov, Tim said that the work in the transport of time within SG15/Q13 assumes that frequency has stabilized, though future work may not make this assumption. In December 2011 there will be a meeting of SG15 where a number of the frequency related documents and the G.8271 time synch document are expected to be consented. 3. Precision Time Protocol Version 2 (PTPv2) Management Information Base Tim Frost provided a PTPv2 MIB discussion based on draft-ietf-tictoc-ptp-mib-00. This MIB covers all of the PTPv2 devices. The MIB was in working group last call but there were no comments received on the list. Later there were some comments by Bert Wijnen and there is work going on to resolve these comments. A new draft should be released soon. There was a discussion as to whether some of the MIB attributes could be writeable. Yaakov and Tim agreed that this is possible for local configuration but performance monitoring was out of scope for this MIB. Anyone who wants writeable attributes should send an email to the list identifying the attributes they want to be writeable. Tim mentioned that there is interest in a second MIB which would provide performance monitoring. The MIB requires a thorough "MIB Doctor" review which may not happen until the working group completes their review. Karen asked for anyone who reviews this even with no comments to please post that they support advancing this draft to the list. 4. Transporting PTP messages (1588) over MPLS Networks Manav Bhatia lead a discussion on Transporting PTP messages (IEEE 1588) over MPLS Networks, draft-ietf-tictoc-1588overmpls-02. He said that the 02 changes revised the draft based on the mailing list comments including fixing the Terminology section; removing the Entropy Label; removing 1588 over pure MPLS mode (i.e. 1588 packet without an IP/UDP or ethernet headers); removing the part about distributing pseudowire labels; and a general cleanup. Distributing pseudowire Labels can be taken up as a different draft. Greg Mirsky had said that he sent comments to the list which were not discussed, he was asked to resend those comments to the list which he did. There was a discussion on MPLS Fast Reroute (FRR) in section 8 of the draft, there is a guarantee for end-to-end protection but that the recovery time is a "SHOULD" and not a "MUST". In discussing the next steps Yaakov recommended reversing the proposed order of requesting outside review, first MPLS should be satisfied and then go to the OSPF and IS-IS working groups. 5. Time Synchronization Protocol Security Requirements Karen briefed the newly released draft-mizrahi-tictoc-security-requirements-00. Karen said that it will provide both a list of TICTOC and IEEE 1588 PTP security requirements. This draft provides security threats; security requirements; a summary of requirements; additional security implications; and issues for further discussion. When Karen asked whether to make this a Working Group document, Yaakov thanked the authors, indicated that it was a great start and supported making this document a working group document. There were no objections to making this a working group document. 6. IPsec security for packet based synchronization Yang Cui on behalf of the author, Yixian Xu, presented draft-xu-tictoc-ipsec-security-for-synchronization-02. This draft has had a large volume of discussion on list . There have been two basic questions that have been brought up on the list: Do we need to encrypt timing packets? Do we need to identify and decrypt timing packets right away (before decrypting all traffic)? Yang indicated that the answer to question 1 is yes for 3GPPP Femtocell and that the draft provided the only efficient mechanism for carrying out a solution to the second question. It had been brought up on the list that if timing packets were easily identified then they were more susceptible to attackers, for which Yang disagreed. The authors a preparing a new version of the draft which addresses the points discussed on the list. 7. Control Messages Protocol for Use with Network Time Protocol Version 4 Karen discussed draft-odonoghue-ntpv4-control-01. The NTP Mode 6 messages were documented in Appendix B of RFC 1305 but this material was not incorporated into RFC 5905 and RFC 1305 has been obsoleted. The 01 draft updated the Mode 6 messages to reflect implementation advances since RFC 1305. This should become a Working Group document (probably the NTP working group). A decision is needed whether this should be informational or a standards track document, it describes optional features but used provides the requirements. Karen ended requesting volunteers to review this draft and to document NTP interleave messages and address autokey algorithm agility. 8. Network Time Mechanisms for Improving Computer Clock Accuracy Dave Marlow discussed draft-marlow-tictoc-computer-clock-accuracy-01. This draft is looking at new mechanisms beyond those identified in NTPv4 (RFC5905) that provide increased time synchronization accuracy for operating system clocks' time. The ID identifies three candidate mechanisms for experimentation. In addition to NTP Interleaved which is in the NTP distribution but not the standard, the draft looks at two other mechanisms which merge the better capabilities of NTP and IEEE 1588. The 01 version of this draft: adds security and network robustness to performance as primary goals; NTP interleaved standards action decision expanded beyond accuracy potential benefits; and analysis of the experiments and those described in Dr. Mills’ new book (Network Time Synchronization—the Network Time Protocol on Earth and in Space, Second Edition, CRC Press). The new draft identifies a need for more data and guidance in selecting NTP operational modes (i.e. tradeoffs between Client/Server and Interleaved Broadcast modes, and the use of Interleaved Symmetric mode). Dave mentioned that more than just common metrics are needed for comparing the candidate mechanisms, a benchmarking methodology, similar to those produced by the Benchmarking working group, appears to be the best approach. Al Morton said that more than time synch metrics are needed, a benchmarking methodology could identify the need to get to a stable state before collecting data. Tim Plunkett presented his past and current experiments on the Interleaved NTP interleaved modes as well as client/server mode. Tim discussed his experiments and how they compared to the experiments described in Dr. Mill's book. Dave and Tim concluded indicating that there were a number of reasons to standardize the NTP Interleaved modes, that the other two mechanisms should be pursued in parallel and that a time synchronization benchmarking methodology draft should be pursued. 9. Associate PW label with PTP application Xihua Fu discussed draft-fuxh-tictoc-associate-pw-with-ptp-00. This draft looks at how a PTP PDU is mapped inside a PW/LSP via Ethernet encapsulation. This draft considers the Dry Martini model in which a pseudowire is established between two endpoints directly and no PTP LSP is needed. There was discussion on traffic engineering which is not considered by this draft. A question that came up was if you have back to back pseudo wire connections without an LSP, how would you do traffic engineering. Someone pointed out an apparent discrepancy with the PDU formats (length always one byte). Yaakov questioned why label advertisements were being done. Manav Bhatia agreed to work with the author about these issues. Xihua is to send an email to the list to summarize the issues brought up on this draft. 10. PDV-based PTP LSP Setup, Reoptimization and Recovery Junhui Zhang discussed draft-zhang-tictoc-pdv-lsp-00. From the ID abstract, "This document defines a mechanism for the setup, reoptimization and recovery of PTP LSP based on the PDV metrics between the 1588 Master and the 1588 Slave". The presentation discussed the PTP communication goes through an MPLS-TE third party network. Junhui discussed the PTP LSP setup, congestion detection, PTP LSP reoptimization and recovery and the PTP Master recovery. There was some concern that this is a duplicate of a draft already submitted to an MPLS working group. Yaakov was concerned with this draft from a timing view, he felt that the worst thing to do is to change the path for your slave, a 50% loss is better than changing the path where time is needed. Tim Frost said you must know the congestion on the other path or you should not switch. Yaakov said that both MPLS and timing people are needed to solve this, and that he has already sent an email to the list concerning this draft. The meeting closed with one minute to spare.