IPv6 Operations WG (v6ops) minutes of IETF60
============================================

Monday, August 2 at 1930-2200
Thursday, August 5 at 0900-1130

CHAIRS: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi>
        Jonne Soininen <jonne.soininen@nokia.com>

The minutes were edited by Pekka Savola notes taken by
Juha Wiljakka (both sessions) and Florent Parent (both sessions).
Tim Chown provided Jabber transcript.

There were over ??? folk in attendance.

AGENDA:

Monday 2nd Aug, 1930-2200
  Introduction and agenda bashing - 5 mins, Chairs/Soininen
  Document status - 15 mins, Chairs/Savola
  VLAN Usage for IPv6 Transition - 5 mins, Chown
  Enterprise solution case study - 20 mins, Chown
  Assisted Tunneling Requirements - 15 mins, Durand
  Moving forward with Mechanisms - 45 mins, Chairs/ADs
  Secure IPv6 Tunneling - 10 mins, Graveman
  IPv6 Security Overview - 10 mins, Savola
  Tunnel-endpoint discovery - 10 mins, Palet
  What to do with NAT-PT applicability statement - 5 mins, Chairs/Savola

Thursday 5th Aug 0900-1130
  Agenda bashing - 5 mins, Chairs
  IETF IPR policy recap/discussion - 5 mins, Chairs
     Summary: IETF takes no stance; read RFC3668
  Enterprise analysis, first look - 10 mins, Bound
  Zero-conf requirements report - 20 mins, Nielsen
  Assisted tunneling analysis - 20 mins, Durand
  Transition mechanisms update - 5 mins, Chairs/Savola
  "Auto-transition" - 10 mins, Palet
  IPv6 Mobility Scenarios - 10 mins, Williams
  Distributed v6 security reqs etc. - 10 mins, Palet
  Advanced L3 IPv6 Exchange Model - 10 mins, Palet

MINUTES:

Monday, August 2 at 1930-2200
=============================

*  Introduction and agenda bashing - 5 mins, Chairs/Soininen
*  Document status - 15 mins, Chairs/Savola

  SLIDES: <00_v6ops-agenda.pdf>
 
  Pekka presented current document status.

Bernard Tuy: What is the status of the ISP scenarios?
Pekka: Past the IESG evaluation, waiting to go to RFC editor.

* VLAN Usage for IPv6 transition - 5 mins, Chown

  SLIDES: <01_vlan-usage-01.pdf>

  Tim Chown presented, and asked whether it is worth documenting, complete
  enough, or ready for WG adoption.

Jonne Soininen: We'll discuss way forward in v6ops later, postponing the
issue of WG adoption.
Bernard Tuy: Agree that this is worth documenting.
Bernand Tuy: Just say a router instead of PC-based router.

Fred Templin: How is VLAN tagging done?
Tim: Using VLAN framing in the Ethernet frames.
Fred Templin: Is it like ISATAP and doesn't go through NATs?
Tim: no, it's independent of NATs.

Christian Huitema: <made a comment>


* Enterprise solution case study: Campus Transition - 20 mins, Chown

  SLIDES: <02_campus-transition.pdf>

  Tim Chown presented, and asked whether this was useful, and whether there
  was potential for WG item.

Alain Durand: Thanks for writing the document. NFSv6 is shipping since couple of years.
  Network discussion in document ok. But application version specifics are not
  as useful.
Christian Huitema: Stick to exact/specific descriptions.
Jim Bound: Good job. Should be work on in this WG.  Would like to see 
  examples of VLAN in appendix.
Alain Durand: This is exactly the kind of doc that the WG needs to do;
  we should focus on documenting real deployments.
Eric ?: In scenario 3, describe difference between IPv6 only deployment
  and v4/v6 as documented?


* Assisted Tunneling Requirements - 15 mins, Durand

  SLIDES: <03_assisted-tunneling.pdf>

  Alain Durand presented.

(In the context of prefix length for tunnel link)
Christian Huitema: Tunnel link is a link. assign /64.
Bernard Tuy: Use first /64 from the /48 to assign tunnel 
Alain Durand: Will change to /64.

(In the context of securing the tunnel link)
Christian Huitema: Should be a way to provide authenticated and encrypted
  service, in an interoperable fashion.
Pekka Savola: We need to stick to the basics.  This is no less secure than
  configured tunneling.  IPv6-in-IPv4 w/ IPsec is described in another
  document.
Eric ?: IPv6 gives many advantages. Need secure mechanism specifically
  outlined. Agrees with Christian.
Pekka Savola: Useful to document. Operationally, many tunnels are not using
  IPsec. Be realistic.
Christian Huitema: Secure VPN.
Jonne Soininen: Sometimes you use double layer encryption as well.

(In the context of the Requirements word)
Thomas Narten: Wording somewhat offensive (IESG of the day).
  Requirement documents should not have uppercase imperatives.
  Should be more of a goal.
Brian Carpenter: Requirement document has to be a self consistent document;
  either you must be able to fill all the requirements (in one solution),
  or the text needs to be more flexible.  Removing the uppercase removes
  that contraint.

(In the context of DNS considerations)
Christian Huitema: DNS considerations should be removed if we use /64.

(General commentary)
Karen Nielsen: the document refers to 3GPP analysis, but does 3GPP refer to
this?  If not, this is incorrect.
Thomas Narten: Does 3gpp identify assisted tunneling as required?
Pekka Savola: assisted tunneling can be applied to address 3GPP.

Christian Huitema: Looks good on whiteboard. Which customer demand drives
  the each requirements?
Pekka Savola: we have too few operators in the IETF..
Christian Huitema: Requirements appear to be based on developing a
  protocol. Need direct link with ISP/... demand.
Alain Durand: requirements not specific enough?
Christian: ground goal on specific scenarios/requirements.

Xiaobao Chen: What is the justification for requiring assisted tunneling
  for 3GPP?
Jonne Soininen: This doesn't give any requirements for 3GPP networks.

Karen Nielsen: (re-stating) I have the problem that this claims to solve
  issues in 3GPP networks, I understand that it is coming from scenarios,
  much from ISP, but does it really apply to 3GPP?
Thomas Narten: if refering to 3GPP requirements but doesn't apply,
  remove reference.

* Moving forward with Mechanisms - 45 mins, Chairs/ADs

  SLIDES: <04_v6ops-way-forwardv2.pdf>

  Jonne Soininen presented, proposing aggressive deadlines, e.g.:

Enterprise analysis
  - first version in 2 weeks
  - in WG last call by sept 7th

Finish assisted tunneling req doc
  - deadline aug 20

List the zeroconf requirements
  - dealline: proposal Thursday
  - requirement by sept 1st

Lets keep the new WG items on hold until these are done.

Erik Nordmark: IPv4 over IPv6: do we need nore details, how they configured,
  traffic optimization, etc.
Pekka Savola:
  No requirements for path optimization. Need discovery. Cross domain (ISP).
  Manually configured tunneling with automatic discovery is sufficient.

Alain Durand: IPv4 in IPv6 in assisted tunneling. Also NAT traversal.
  There was a "or else.." in the slides -- if we don't get this done,
  then what?  Closing the WG?
Jonne Soininen: Not closing.  If not done in a suitable timeframe, we don't
  have it; we won't provide a solution to those scenarios.
David Kessens: some progress is going on. E.g., Teredo moving to PS.
Margaret Wasserman: Credit to current chairs for moving things forward.
  Holes have been identified. A lot of effort have been made. Hopes
  that people will see hope on this. You have done good job, guys!

Jim Bound: 2 weeks is not realistic, 4 weeks closer to it.
Jonne Soininen: We need just the first version, i.e., showing that somebody
  is willing to make the 1st version in 2 weeks, we need to see commitment.
  Can be extended, but we need to see commitment.
Jim Bound: make it 3 weeks for enterprise analysis.  I Will deliver it.
  If folks want to give input, send TEXT!

Jordi Palet: What do you mean with zero-conf tunneling?
Jonne Soininen: identified in 3GPP. Doesn't mean something specific.
  Requirements only.

Tim Chown: Have deadlines working both ways: for IESG as well.
David Kessens: First slot for IESG is 2 weeks after IETF.
Tim Chown: that is same time as deadline: impossible.
Thomas Narten: No room for iterations in the current deadlines. Good progess
  would be to have review every month.
Jonne Soininen: First enterprise analysis in 3 weeks, then iterate every
  month. What is a realistic last call date?
Pekka Savola: by the end of September?
David Kessens: for next IETF too late. Next IETF should be about
  discussion of the future of this WG.
Jim Bound: Will this wg die? I don't want this work to be killed like
  Ngtrans. It is time that the drafts are put in public.
David Kessens: We are making progress, milestones almost done. There are
  no rumors, rechartering is normal practice in the IETF.  There has
  been discussion that a wg standardizing tunneling mechs is needed.

Jim Bound: doesn't know what assisted tunneling does. 
Pekka Savola: TSP falls in this category

Karen Nielsen: Would like to know which scenario map into assisted
  tunneling/zero conf/etc..

Christian Huitema:  Is ISATAP missing?
Jonne Soininen: It is not missing, but it is missing... Jonne's personal
  opinion is that ISATAP fits in zeroconf.  Chair hat on: We have to see
  requirements before we can say. Fred has sent ISATAP to be published as an
  Experimental RFC, but thinking that ISATAP fits in zeroconf..
Fred Templin: moved in experimental. But would like to have it on standard track.
Christian Huitema: may revise the ISATAP document later. Need to document what
  is on the market in RFC document.
Christian Huitema: I have a lot of sympathy for Jim: we'repending lots of time
  in analysing/requirements.
Jim Bound: Fred should not have to go to experimental for ISATAP 
Jonne Soininen: he doesn't have to, we're not forcing him.  But he has the
  right to do so.
Brian Carpenter: ID-tracker says on ISATAP work: waiting for v6ops scenarios
  work..
Thomas Narten: Old text, gone to RFC Editor.  The ID-tracker needs to be
  updated.
Jonne Soininen: We have a plan, we can move forward quickly.  Interested
  people coming to Jonne so that we have something done by Thursday.


* Secure IPv6 Tunneling - 10 mins, Graveman

  SLIDES: <05_v6ops-secure-tunnels.pdf>

  Richard Graveman presented.

Brian Carpenter: running code in router-router mode using older IPsec
  specs. The fact that this has been through security review, good to
  document here.
Jim Bound: good document. Worried with the end-to-end problem with transport
  mode for router-router scenario.
Jonne Soininen: not considering it now for WG item, due to the agreed
  policy.

* IPv6 Security Overview - 10 mins, Savola

  SLIDES: <06_v6ops-sec.pdf>

  Pekka Savola presented, stating that this is referred to by a couple of
  documents and we need something like this.  He wanted new
  editors/co-authors for the work, inviting to come and talk to him

* Tunnel-endpoint Discovery, 10 mins, Palet

  SLIDES: <07_v6ops-tun-auto-disc.pdf>

  Jordi Palet presented.

Xiaobao Chen: Applicability in 3GPP?
Jordi Palet: There's another doc "auto transition"..
Jonne Soininen: Let's discuss that off-line.

Tim Chown: How evaluate all these solutions to decide how to pick?
Jordi Palet: preparing document on this.

* What do we want to do with NAT-PT? (Pekka)

  SLIDES: <08_v6ops-natpt.pdf>

  Pekka Savola presented.

Bernard Tuy: NAT-PT is just another kind of NAT, should drop NAT-PT.
Christian Huitema: if we do nothing, NAT-PT will endup being in RFP and
  implementors will be required to implement.
Remi Depre(?): Depre: NAT-PT essential piece when no IPv4 address available
(Lot's of people in the room): NO!!!
Remi Depre(?): ok, I have things to learn :).

Tony Hain: v6-only app <-> v4-only app needs a translation yes. This can be
  at different level.  NAT-PT not necessarly the solution. We need a crisp doc
  that says that IPv6 deployment does not require NAT-PT.

Alain Durand: Change status of NAT-PT (PS) to something else.
Pekka Savola: maybe -- but we'd still to document it.

Xiaobao Chen: NAT-PT would save payload size compared to tunneling.
Tony Hain: Amount of battery costs you more than the overhead..

Brian Carpenter: Need to find volunteer to document why we reclassify NAT-PT.

Bernard Tuy: What About SIIT?
Pekka Savola: already covered in the document.

Pekka Savola: there seems to be significant interest to work on this.  Come
  see the chairs after the meeting.

Thursday, August 5 at 0900-1130
===============================

* Introduction / Agenda Bashing

  SLIDES: <10_v6ops-agenda2.pdf>

* IETF IPR policy recap (Chairs/Pekka)

  The subject had come up on the list, so Pekka Savola just reminded of the
  policy; up to WG participants to make decision on what to do.

* Enterprise analysis (Jim Bound)

  SLIDES: <11_ent_scen.pdf>

Pekka Savola: personal observations: always when I see huge matrix, I get
concerned...but it is good that you can pick the most relevant, real
scenarios. This looks promising.

Alain Durand: Are you going to focus on L3 or Applications in enterprise?
Jim Bound: 00 draft more focused on L3, some apps.
Alain Durand: L3 easy to fix. app issues more difficult
Jim Bound: don't agree, L3 more important.
Alain Durand: final document should have L7 considerations (apps)
Jim Bound: sure. Don't feel that should handle all possible DNS config, for example.
  Done elsewhere.
Jonne Soininen: let's take this off-list.

Fred Templin: I offered text on the mailing list. why not there?
Jim Bound: not seen text. will look

Pekka Savola: What is "some form of translation", does it include proxying? 
Jim Bound: Yes.

Tim Chown: Campus draft looking at apps/L7. can be used in scenario.

* Goals of Zero-conf tunneling (Karen Neilsen)

  SLIDES: <12_zeroconfig-reqs.pdf>

  Karen Nielsen presented.

Alain Durand: How many IPv6 addresses are you considering, what if there are
  devices behind the terminal?
Karen Nielsen: at least one address..
Alain Durand: Sounds nice, but a little bit restrictive.

Fred Templin: OK with the goals. But non-goals not appropriate for this
  document. Limits future growth.

Pekka Savola: how will nodes behind the tunnel get IPv6?
Karen Nielsen: one tunnel is setup, can do some mechanism
Pekka Savola: not sure of answer. Laptop behind the UE?
Jonne Soininen: use the same way as with IPv4, i.e. not using
  a shared PDP context, but using 2 PDP contexts: one for the UE and one
  for the laptop (PPP PDP context).

Tim Chown: Compare the differences of assisted tunneling vs zero-conf.
Karen Nielsen: non-goal is to differentiate with assisted tunneling
Fred Templin: (Disagrees)

David Kessens: happy with current draft. not trying to solve everything
Alain Durand: a lot of common stuff with assisted tunneling.
  Does it make sense to explore 2 parallel?  From vendor perspective, just
  one would be good.
David Kessens: too early to answer this question.
Jordi Palet: trying to keep as simple as possible; /64 must not add extra
  complexity compared to /128. No configuration.

Jim Bound: Response to Alain. Assisted tunneling is nothing more than an
  informational document. Asking for more wasted time.
Jordi Palet: We only have an RFC on a generic idea, but not a
  complete protocol description, so no interoperability among
  implementations.
Alain Durand: Assisted tunneling will answer some of your questions


* Assisted tunneling

  SLIDES: <13_asst-tun-analysis.pdf>

  Alain Durand presented, reminding that tunnel broker implementations are not
  interoperable since no formal *protocol* definition.

(On the context of ISATAP)
Fred Templin: could also use out of band for prefix delegation.
Alain Durand: breaks the security model, all routers would have to be in
  PRL.
Fred Templin: let's go off-line on this.

(On the context of L2TP + IPsec)
Dave Thaler: IPsec could be added to all the scenarios, and it would make
  it more challenging to deploy.

David Kessens: Every slides show "pass most requirements". not useful.
Alain Durand: sorry for being unclear. That means they pass all the
  requirements *except* endpoint discovery, but no mechanism passes this.

Bob Hinden: TCP tunneling has serious issues w/ packet loss.
Jim Bound: Good to define a setup protocol. How do you discover where the
  tunnel. Would be valuable part of this work.
Jonne Soininen: after the exact reqs, need a doc mapping the solutions.

* Moving forward (as needed)

  (No presentation.)

David Kessens: work was done quickly. Keep pace.
Jonne Soininen: thanked for these productive 2 days, hopefully people
  will also work hard after IETF60.

* Final trans-mech-bis issue

  SLIDES: <14_transmech.pdf>

  Pekka Savola presented.  There were no comments from participants.

* "Auto-transition": picking the right mechanism - 10 mins, Palet

  SLIDES: <15_auto-trans.pdf>

  Jordi Palet presented, and at the end also noted that this
  is being implemented.

Dave Thaler: 1) you may need to use longest match for tie-breaker for
  preference of mechanisms; 2) dynamic updates based on performance is a bad
  idea -- May fall into synchronization, everyone switch, congestion, fallback,
  congestion, etc.
Jordi Palet: The performance estimates could be enabled by the user, not
  automatically.

Pekka Savola: IETF rejected PBN some years ago. Are ISP still using this?
Jordi Palet: agrees, should be host centric, but need to get input from the
  network.
Pekka Savola: Just to be clear, no objection to getting input from the
  network, just that PBNs are not the way to do so.

Alain Durand: Network debugging. Applicability important. 

* IPv6 Mobility Scenarios/Requirements update, 10 mins, Williams

  SLIDES: <16_mipv6-trans.pdf>

  Carl Williams presented.

Karen Nielsen: any new requirement for MIP movement detection. Which
  requirements are used for movement detection?
Henrik Levkowetz: movement detection is orthogonal to this. Part of this is
  describe in MIP documents, but a lot is not. That is where DNA work
  comes in.

Jim Bound: Don't care about mip4. Should not tie to 3gpp, as MIPv6 will be
  used by all kinds of devices. Should focus on mip6.
Carl Williams: Agree. Need to do some analysis on current transition scenarios.

George Tsirtsis: MIP4 is deployed today. Used. Would like to do mip6. What are
  we going to do? deploy both mip4 and mip6?
Jim Bound: MIPv4 is only done inside the enterprises or inside the sites,
  not globally.
Henrik Levkowetz: Comment coming from wrong direction. If you have existing
  mip4, not talking about getting new addresses, but adding IPv6 within
  mip4 network.
George Tsirtsis: Similar to IPv4 private network. We have mechanisms to
  transition to Ipv6. Same is required for MIP4 networks.
Jonne Soininen: let's continue off-list.

* Distributed v6 security requirements/problem statement - 10 mins, Palet

  SLIDES: <17_distributed.pdf>

  Jordi Palet presented.

Mr. X (?): You have a solution. You decided on host based solution. 
  This work should not be happening here.
Pekka Savola: Agreed, this is not a place for developing a security
  solution.
Mr. X: This looks like a product, not requirements.
Jordi Palet: read the draft. Not sure if this work should be
  continued here but I'm also sure this is an operational issue,
  so v6ops. Anyway I also asked from inputs to SAAG and other previous
  attempts for this kind of work, and nothing until now, no any single
  reply.
?: Good paper presented at Nanog.
Jordi: already working on implementation.

* Status update of quarantine security model

  SLIDES: <18_quarantine.pdf>

  Satoshi Kondo presented.

  There were no comments.

* Advanced L3 IPv6 Exchange Model - 10 mins, Morelli

  SLIDES: <19_l3-ix.pdf>

  Mario Morelli Presented.

Bernard Tuy: Why would an IX provide IPv6 addresses to customers?
Mario Morelli: On our model, we provide addresses.
Bernard Tuy: in real world, this is not so.

Kurt Lindqvist: Don't think this model will work. This makes IX as ISP.
Simon Leinen: Find it confusing this is called an IX. 
Mario Morelli: agree, need to find another name.

* Any other Business?

Tim Chown: wg on other lists are doing assited tunneling stuff. EX: nemo are
  defining their own tunneling method.
David Kessens: Reason why need to define requirement precisely because this
  need is in WG in INT area.

* NON official part of the meeting

 The WG meeting was closed, but because the room was empty, Alain Durand and
 Fred Templin took the chance and presented.

-end